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Can anyone identify this (apple?) nubus+pds videocard?
Posted by: lobust on 2023-01-24 13:12:03 Do you have a Quadra 800, or a Centris / Quadra 650? Daft question, but if you do, could you install it in one and check if it does millions of colours? The onboard video is hobbled so it doesn't and I'd be interested if that carries over to the card. Related: The DAFB (framebuffer controller) on my Quadra 700 has a different part number so I dismissed it, but I found this image which clearly has a 343S0128-01 populated in the DAFB, which lends credence to the notion that this is a duplication of the Q700 video subsystem... I can't identify the 343S1075, however on my Q800 the DJMEMC and IOSB are -1077 and -1078 respectively so it is of that era... Edit: The 343S1075 is used on the 8-24GC
Posted by: Phipli on 2023-01-24 13:17:15 Related: The DAFB (framebuffer controller) on my Quadra 700 has a different part number so I dismissed it, but I found this image which clearly has a 343S0128-01 populated in the DAFB, which lends credence to the notion that this is a duplication of the Q700 video subsystem... I can't identify the 343S1075, however on my Q800 the DJMEMC and IOSB are -1077 and -1078 respectively so it is of that era... Edit: The 343S1075 is used on the 8-24GC Did you see the RAMDAC on that Q700 you shared is a 343S1075?
Posted by: lobust on 2023-01-24 13:18:49 Did you see the RAMDAC on that Q700 you shared is a 343S1075? Lol, no I missed that!
Posted by: Phipli on 2023-01-24 13:22:20 Lol, no I missed that! Always the same, search for an hour and then it's right in front of you 🤣 So, we can all agree it is just a first gen Quadra video circuit (700/900)... but, did RasterOps design the Quadra video, or apple give rasterops permission to make it on a card?
Posted by: Powerbase on 2023-01-24 13:28:09 Nevertheless, benchmarks?
Posted by: swami on 2023-01-24 13:28:50 Yes, that's rather baffling as a use case. Either just make an exact copy of the system and have it integrate as seamlessly as possible with the system without the need for drivers? And somehow hoping Apple would allow them the use of their IC's?? Or is this the basis of the Q700 video circuit, designed by RasterOps for Apple? Given the fact that the card was either retracted from the market or never properly launched... what can we make of that?
Posted by: swami on 2023-01-24 13:32:42 Nevertheless, benchmarks? I ran a quick Speedometer benchmark this afternoon but was in such a hurry that I couldn't take pictures. Well... perhaps some tweaking was needed, but the overall speed running system 7.5 was rather unimpressive. If i read it correctly it was somewhat slower than a Q605?? This weekend I hope to find time to run some proper tests.
Posted by: Phipli on 2023-01-24 13:39:37 I ran a quick Speedometer benchmark this afternoon but was in such a hurry that I couldn't take pictures. Well... perhaps some tweaking was needed, but the overall speed running system 7.5 was rather unimpressive. If i read it correctly it was somewhat slower than a Q605?? This weekend I hope to find time to run some proper tests. I would expect it to be only similar to a 605? The video on a 605 is pretty quick. I think my 33MHz 475 (the video is overclocked too) matches an 840AV! The stock 475 probably about matches a Quadra 900, and possibly also 950, which might have very similar video performance to a 900. Sorry I didn't capture the actual 700/900/950 in this photo.
Posted by: Powerbase on 2023-01-24 14:46:51 I would expect it to be only similar to a 605? The video on a 605 is pretty quick. I think my 33MHz 475 (the video is overclocked too) matches an 840AV! The stock 475 probably about matches a Quadra 900, and possibly also 950, which might have very similar video performance to a 900. Sorry I didn't capture the actual 700/900/950 in this photo. View attachment 51582 My understanding was that the 605's video was pretty sprightly despite being the 'low end' quadra. I imagine just being a dumb framebuffer it isnt going to be some long hidden diamond. Interesting nevertheless. The little I looked up about it seems to be it being bundled with the 'Sweet 16' display. So, it was probably just meant to be enough to run it.
Posted by: al kossow on 2023-01-24 16:39:16 did RasterOps design the Quadra video Dale Adams designed DAFB (Dale Adams Frame Buffer)
Posted by: lobust on 2023-01-25 01:01:27 An unrelated but interesting take away from this discussion is that sometime during the production lifespan of the first Quadras, Apple changed the numbering scheme of their custom ASICs to the "343S" system, and there are differently numbered but identical ASICs out there from this time period. It presumably also means that my Q700 is one of the earlier builds. I suspect this was somewhat common knowledge amongst some of you, but it's news to me!
Posted by: Phipli on 2023-01-25 01:02:26 Dale Adams designed DAFB (Dale Adams Frame Buffer) Thanks @al kossow! I found this interesting series of posts by Dale Adams. This will basically apply to this card too. Interesting thing for me is the Quadra graphics uses 32bits per pixel, not 24. It's faster but more VRAM hungry. Quadra 700 & 900 On-Board Video Capabilities
Posted by: Phipli on 2023-01-25 01:28:43 Do you have a Quadra 800, or a Centris / Quadra 650? Daft question, but if you do, could you install it in one and check if it does millions of colours? The onboard video is hobbled so it doesn't and I'd be interested if that carries over to the card. Centris & Quadra 800 Video Capabilities Based on the link, I anticipate the card would give 24bit graphics to a 650/800, at Q700 speeds, which is a couple of % slower than the built in video, due to a removed wait state. I assume the Wombats mandate faster VRAM.
Posted by: Trash80toHP_Mini on 2023-01-25 08:51:13 I wonder about acceleration. Is the comparable NuBus card accelerated? If so, drivers might add acceleration to the PDS version which would be quite some achievement I'd think?
Posted by: Phipli on 2023-01-25 11:22:04 I wonder about acceleration. Is the comparable NuBus card accelerated? If so, drivers might add acceleration to the PDS version which would be quite some achievement I'd think? The chips are from a Quadra 700, which isn't accelerated. The speed is from architectural optimisation rather than QuickDraw acceleration. The article about Q700 and 900 video I linked, by someone who worked on it, is worth a quick read.
Posted by: Trash80toHP_Mini on 2023-01-25 14:22:52 Yep, understand onboard/PDS video is faster than NuBus due to processor bus bandwidth interface to system. Any VidCard or onboard video is pretty much just a buffer for VRAM and a RAMDAC, no matter the source. Curios as to whether or not it's possible to add acceleration on top of bandwidth improvements in this case. ISTR some SE/30 PDS cards being accelerated, such would be the same thing in a Quadre PDS I'd think? Meanwhile, I'll definitely have a look at the docs. 😉
Posted by: lobust on 2023-01-25 15:54:20 Yep, understand onboard/PDS video is faster than NuBus due to processor bus bandwidth interface to system. Any VidCard or onboard video is pretty much just a buffer for VRAM and a RAMDAC, no matter the source. Curios as to whether or not it's possible to add acceleration on top of bandwidth improvements in this case. ISTR some SE/30 PDS cards being accelerated, such would be the same thing in a Quadre PDS I'd think? Meanwhile, I'll definitely have a look at the docs. 😉 It would surely be possible, but there is no additional silicon on this card for any acceleration or dsp. It's still a very cool card, as there were apparently very few 040 pds graphics cards ever on the market (I can only think of one other - the Mira Rainbow GX), and this one seems to be unicorn poop rare. I am highly envious!
Posted by: Unknown_K on 2023-01-25 16:23:11 Just putting a card on the PDS will not solve all your problems because that card will eat into CPU cycles moving that data around. If you wanted to get crazy back in the 68040 days, Apple could have included external L2 cache that was massive enough to have the whole frame buffer fit in it.
Posted by: Powerbase on 2023-01-26 00:11:53
Posted by: swami on 2023-01-26 14:22:55 Now that's a nice overview of the RasterOps cards and it answers some of the questions (which "we" in this thread already figured out. What a wealth of knowledge is in the 68kmla user base!): - No drivers needed for this card - 832 x 624 (75Hz) and 640 x 480 (66.7Hz) - and one of the few cards for the 040 PDS from RasterOps or other brands. A rare specimen indeed. I hope to run a benchmark this weekend and will post the results here, after that I will store the card safely. And for those of you who anticipate owning this rare like (I quote 🤣) "unicorn poop" card: Yes, I am going to sell it. I'm breaking up my collection. Unfortunately I am currently extremely busy so a little patience is needed I'm afraid. Probably somewhere near the end of February.
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