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| Project: PowerMac 6100 HPV Riser + HPV VRAM |
Posted by: demik on 2020-04-25 04:53:05 Hello everyone 🙂 Â
Introduction
Long story short, I got a 8100 a while back, which had some sort of PSU fault which resulted in a dead motherboard (burned area of 4 cm^2 + tons of smoke :O  ). Salvaged some parts of it, included one HPV card (820-0509-A). I want to use this card into my PowerMac 6100/60 as it's more powerfull than the onboard GPU.
I also see a lot of HPV cards on ebay, so that would be an interesting upgrade to some others 6100s
Goal
The first goal to create a riser card which will + maybe other stuff if that's possible (think debug LEDs, and so on)
An bonus goal would be to create VRAM SIMM sticks for HPV cards.
The design will be OpenSource and production will start with a small batch of risers (5-10), more if needed
Testing
The HPV works directly plugged into the PDS slot (see picture), but it stick a lot outsise which is not ideal. This is good news, it means that the PCB routing will be easy to do (1:1)

Known Hardware
As far as I know, there is two existing risers which can help with this.
- The NuBus riser (P/N : Unknown) has the wrong connector (NuBus), Dimentions should help
- The DAV riser (P/N : Unknown) has the good connector, this is the one to be cloned
- DOS riser (P/N :Â 820-0578-A) has the wrong connector, looks more like a Quadra PDS slot. Dimentions should help
Help wanted
As I've none of the previously mentioned risers, and none SIMMs, anything including photos, especialy precise measurements/dimentions should help.
Thanks a lot for your help.
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Posted by: trag on 2020-04-25 21:44:12 I think I posted a source for the slot connector, which you will need one of on the riser card, in a thread over in the Hacks forum.  Too lazy to go hunt up a link at the moment.
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Posted by: demik on 2020-04-26 13:20:23 Found it, thanks :
Interesting enough, this is the same connector which is used the other way for the Beige G3 Personality Cards :

Reference I previously found is EDAC 302-182-520-900:
https://www.mouser.fr/datasheet/2/123/95-1483758.pdf
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Posted by: Trash80toHP_Mini on 2020-04-26 16:05:05 Hi, demik. The most useful card for reference outside the OEM part would be a G3 accelerator for the 6100. You can get all your measurements from any one of those boards very easily, especially the offset required for connector<->backplane fit. I can haul down the 6100 and scan the solder side of the G3 for starters.
I'll be following your progress very closely because I suddenly now have one more to add to the pair of risers on the backburner already. :🙂 Your observation about the personality card connector had me confirm that a Left Angle Adapter to flop over the Whisper card in my long procrastinated Beige G3 2U Rackmount build works nicely. I'd planned on bodging a pair of PCI riser cables to make that connection, but now I'm inspired! That connector info is much welcomed, trag, THX! The other riser project's a pair of offset, lowrider "second slot" PCI adapters, one for the TAM and the other for the drawer of the 6360 and its single slot AIO variations.
Have you found a rapid prototyping fab that can do edge card connectors of proper thicknesses yet? That was where procrastination set in for me almost three years ago. Anybody got info on sources? ISTR the ROM and SIMM edgecard thicknesses being a bit of a hurdle?
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Posted by: demik on 2020-04-27 03:52:12
Hi, demik. The most useful card for reference outside the OEM part would be a G3 accelerator for the 6100. You can get all your measurements from any one of those boards very easily, especially the offset required for connector<->backplane fit. I can haul down the 6100 and scan the solder side of the G3 for starters. Thats the thing, i don't have any 🙂  I will search for some G3 accelerator specs. Can you scan yours please ?
I'll be following your progress very closely because I suddenly now have one more to add to the pair of risers on the backburner already. :🙂 Your observation about the personality card connector had me confirm that a Left Angle Adapter to flop over the Whisper card in my long procrastinated Beige G3 2U Rackmount build works nicely. I'd planned on bodging a pair of PCI riser cables to make that connection, but now I'm inspired! That connector info is much welcomed, trag, THX! The other riser project's a pair of offset, lowrider "second slot" PCI adapters, one for the TAM and the other for the drawer of the 6360 and its single slot AIO variations. Nice projects ! I went the Micro ATX case (will show this in a separate thread "soon")
Have you found a rapid prototyping fab that can do edge card connectors of proper thicknesses yet? That was where procrastination set in for me almost three years ago. Anybody got info on sources? ISTR the ROM and SIMM edgecard thicknesses being a bit of a hurdle?
[SIZE=1.4rem]I've been told to try jlbpcb, or I will homemade the prototype.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1.4rem]Ok so now we have two connectors references, I need to buy[/SIZE][SIZE=1.4rem]Â a set of thoses for checking.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1.4rem]Nice information about the thickness of SIMMs... I noticed that the VRAM SIMM from a Macintosh LC fit the HPV perfectly (it isnt compatible, but it physicaly fits). The thickness of this SIMM is 1.3mm. Thats a problem because standardized values are either 1.2mm or 1.6mm. Maybe 1.2mm should work.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1.4rem]Regards[/SIZE]
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Posted by: Trash80toHP_Mini on 2020-04-27 10:40:41 Good to know the edge connector standards, that helps a lot. HPV and PCI would be 1.6mm according to my inexpensive DigiPers. Not pulling out the Mitutoyo or the micrometer for this one. Set to 1.6mm I'm getting variances in the low hundredths to the plus for HPV and to the minus of a cheap two PCI cabled riser. Checked slots and edge connectors against each other and 1.6mm appears to be on the money!
Off again today, so I'll see if I can get a scan done later.
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Posted by: trag on 2020-04-27 16:53:10 Old SIMM, e.g. 30 pin, 64 pin, are .050" or 1.27 mm.  1.2mm is a little too thin.  More modern stuff is .063" or 1.6mm and everything is more politely standardized at that thickness.
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Posted by: demik on 2020-04-27 17:31:09
Old SIMM, e.g. 30 pin, 64 pin, are .050" or 1.27 mm.  1.2mm is a little too thin.  More modern stuff is .063" or 1.6mm and everything is more politely standardized at that thickness. Thanks ! I saw someone else on the forums building SIMMs for IIfx, I will ask him
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Posted by: Trash80toHP_Mini on 2020-04-27 20:21:07 Not so great results so far, but the side of my pencil came out sharp as a tack! :mellow:

I'll see if I can locate my in need of resurrection (thermal paste hopefully) Sonnet from the Radius 81/110. Maybe its solder side components aren't skyscrapers. Add witness lines for whatever measurements you'd like me to take

Looks like I need to haul out my Win7 NetBook to use the scanner software on it for this. Even the DOS(?) Riser came out pretty bad. Used NAPS2 on the Win10 notebook and the file sizes are way too small. Can't figure out the controls, if any. Not Another PDF Scanner 2 just ain't cuttin' it for this. Maybe it's for low res, down and dirty, straight to PDF only?
edit: anybody got a recommendation for a freeware, donationware or shareware TWAIN scan app for Win10?
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Posted by: demik on 2020-04-28 03:06:19 Thats enough for me, I can calculate dimentions with this. Picture looks stretched but that will do.
Top is G3, bottom is DOS rise right ?
Just need two measurements : left and right sides of the DOS riser.
Thanks a lot !
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Posted by: Trash80toHP_Mini on 2020-04-28 23:46:54

This should be a lot better. Just scale the 4 inches between 1"& 5" to life size in something like Illustrator. You can then create boxes from point to point to read off all your measurements/offsets etc. The other way to go about it is to work from the grid spacing of the edge card slot's soldertails. PCB dimensions are a red herring, connector grids are hard numbers. I'll see if I can come up with the Sonnet Card for a sharper image.
I threw the DOS riser in for shiggles and gits. Do you need another scan of that one too?
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Posted by: Trash80toHP_Mini on 2020-04-28 23:59:21

"Burning the first inch" only and scaling the 5 inches from 1 thru 6 will be significantly more accurate. This one's set to highest quality in PaperScan Free Edition 3.0.103.
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Posted by: demik on 2020-04-29 00:15:52
View attachment 33185
This should be a lot better. Just scale the 4 inches between 1"& 5" to life size in something like Illustrator. You can then create boxes from point to point to read off all your measurements/offsets etc. The other way to go about it is to work from the grid spacing of the edge card slot's soldertails. PCB dimensions are a red herring, connector grids are hard numbers. I'll see if I can come up with the Sonnet Card for a sharper image.
I threw the DOS riser in for shiggles and gits. Do you need another scan of that one too? Good to know ! I didn't think of using Illustrator / Photoshop
That will do, thanks again !
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Posted by: demik on 2020-04-29 01:10:29 Also, the dimensions are also in there (search for PowerMac_Computers.pdf on google)
Progress on the SIMM side. Here is the pinout extracted from Apple Developer Note
Table 4-9 VRAM SIMM pin assignments
Pin | Name | Pin | Name | Pin | Name
----+--------+-----+--------+-----+--------
1 | +5 V | 24 | DQ4 | 47 | DQ10
2 | DSF* | 25 | DQ5 | 48 | A6
3 | SDQ0 | 26 | SDQ7 | 49 | A7
4 | SDQ1 | 27 | SDQ6 | 50 | A8
5 | /DTOE0†| 28 | NC | 51 | NC
6 | DQ0 | 29 | +5 V | 52 | +5 V
7 | DQ1 | 30 | DQ7 | 53 | GND
8 | SDQ3 | 31 | DQ6 | 54 | GND
9 | SDQ1 | 32 | /CAS0 | 55 | SDQ12
10 | /WE0 | 33 | A4 | 56 | SDQ13
11 | /RAS | 34 | A5 | 57 | NC
12 | /SE0 | 35 | GND | 58 | DQ12
13 | DQ3 | 36 | SC | 59 | DQ13
14 | DQ2 | 37 | SCQ8 | 60 | SDQ15
15 | A0 | 38 | SDQ9 | 61 | SDQ14
16 | A1 | 39 | /DTOE1 | 62 | NC
17 | A2 | 40 | DQ8 | 63 | NC
18 | A3 | 41 | DQ9 | 64 | DQ15
19 | GND | 42 | SDQ11 | 65 | DQ14
20 | GND | 43 | SDQ10 | 66 | /CAS1
21 | SDQ4 | 44 | /WE1 | 67 | +5 V
22 | SDQ5 | 45 | /SE1 | 68 | +5 V
23 | NC | 46 | DQ11
* The DSF pin must be tied to either +5 V or ground.
†A slash before a signal name indicates that it is in the low state when active. Also, the dimensions are also in there (search for PowerMac_Computers.pdf on google)
Scans of a similar VRAM


It's stated that they should be 80ns, but the chips on my HPV are 70ns... Some guy on the Internet put HPV video VRAM on an LC 475 and it worked. So I don't understand why mine deosn't. Maybe the 80ns vs 70ns thing.
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Posted by: demik on 2020-04-29 11:23:13 Connector offset is around 17mm, and card is exactly at 40mm above the motherboard (ruler inserted into PDS slot)


Chips used on my HPV are KM428C256J-7. Datasheet included in the post: View attachment KM428C256J.pdf

Anyone got different chips ?
TODO: reverse and compare the PCB layout of existing Cubig VRAM sticks (with VRAM chips V52C8128K80)
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Posted by: demik on 2020-05-07 02:42:27 Progress !
Here what's being done :
- Created a KiKad library for Apple Connectors
- Diagram done
- PCB Layout and routing done
- Bough enough component for a first batch of risers (using connector EDAC 302-182-520-900)
PCB routing was quite a mess. i'm pretty sure Apple risers are 4 layers, but managed to get it working with only 2 ! Auto routing gave up a couple of times (mostly ground and a few datelines, had to help him out a bit)

Here is a render of what the board should look like:

Everything should be home in 2-3 weeks, I will keep you updated !
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Posted by: cheesestraws on 2020-05-07 03:00:22
Here what's being done :
- Created a KiKad library for Apple Connectors 
- Diagram done 
- PCB Layout and routing done 
- Bough enough component for a first batch of risers (using connector EDAC 302-182-520-900)  You're going about this in a beautifully organised fashion. Are you planning to release the KiCad library for wider consumption?
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Posted by: demik on 2020-05-07 04:12:47
You're going about this in a beautifully organised fashion. Are you planning to release the KiCad library for wider consumption? Thank you !
Sure, the whole project source (although in a crude state) is available here https://github.com/demik/oldworld/tree/master/EDA. I need to add some doc and tweak some stuff before it can be considered "clean"
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Posted by: Franklinstein on 2020-05-07 05:12:47 Years ago I put in a bit of effort to get the NuBus adapter and a 7" PrecisionColor 24X but was pretty disappointed in its performance in my 6100/66 (though my expectations were probably way higher than they should have been: this was 2001ish and already at least a 7-year-old computer). If I had known about the HPV option I would've used that instead and probably saved some money.
Since then I've fitted an HPV card to either a 6100 or a Pioneer MPC-GX1 (same thing, basically) and it just barely clears the hard drive with all of the VRAM sticks installed. However the VRAM SIMMs are extremely close to the processor's heat sink so they'll get hot, and you can't really use a fancy heat sink/fan combo on the processor, but maybe it would be a good idea to switch to one of the types used in the 9150 or 7200, available new (without the Peltier junction attached) as found by jessenator in another thread:Â
Turns out Wakefield-Vette still makes PowerPC specific heatsinks, and one where the clip fits, although instead of the X-pattern, it's two parallel clips.
From Mouser, or from DigiKey. |
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