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| Tunnel Vision On Monochrome Active Matrix Powerbooks |
Posted by: Paralel on 2013-08-21 13:48:37
Has the true root cause of this ever been determined? It doesn't appear to be caps, nor the backlight. Is it a manufacturing defect of some kind? Is there any way to prevent it, or reverse it?
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Posted by: uniserver on 2013-08-21 13:50:22
What model are you specifically talking about?
I was only aware of the PB 170 having this issue due to moisture contamination, bad seal on the LCD.
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Posted by: Paralel on 2013-08-21 13:58:15
From searching the forum here, it appears people have encountered it on the 170, 180, Duo 280, 540, etc... It appears all the early monochrome active matrix monitors were impacted by it, but whether or when it happens to a given system seems to differ significantly.
All of them had the same symptoms, darkening at the four corners that tended to get worse the longer the affected system was used, and it persisted even after the display was turned off, but would eventually disappear if left alone long enough, with eventual deterioration to the point where it swallowed the entire screen. It seems to be a progressive and terminal condition once it appears.
I know in one of the threads someone has good pictures of what it looks like.
One can easily discount the backlight since that would have nothing to do with darkening after the system was turned off, and caps don't seem to be an issue, since that was ruled out in yet another thread on the topic. It seems to be some kind of defect in screen itself somehow.
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Posted by: uniserver on 2013-08-21 14:00:44
Ah well that is the first I'v herd of that.
post the links to those posts if you ever come across them.
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Posted by: Paralel on 2013-08-21 14:16:40
Here you go:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19829
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=17338
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14421
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5858
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2555
In one post in this thread Bunsen mentions his impacted Duo 280:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11953
It is discussed here, mixed in with other things:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7408
You discussed it with regard to the 170 here, but it appears to impact all the other monochrome active-matrix models as well:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18921
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Posted by: Paralel on 2013-08-21 14:17:41
Do you think it is the same moisture ingress as with the 170? Do the symptoms fit?
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Posted by: uniserver on 2013-08-21 15:11:38
Ok great. Glad the Mac Portable doesn't have those issues.
Those consolidated threads in this one will be helpful.
Anyone have a vacuum pump that is large enough to accommodate a powerbook 170 LCD screen?
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Posted by: Brooklyn on 2013-08-21 15:42:58
I would like to add. I have a powerbook 180, my screen had the same issue. I bought a screen from another member on this forum that was tested in his powerbook 180 for hours and the issue did not occur. I got the screen, didn't have a chance to install for 6 months. When I did swap the screen with mine, the new screen had the exact same issue.
This leads me to believe the problem is seperate from the screen itself, somewhere in the lower section of the laptop.
My thread:
http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21754
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Posted by: uniserver on 2013-08-21 16:03:03
well that could be it or the seller told you a fib 😛
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Posted by: Paralel on 2013-08-21 17:24:26
Ok great. Glad the Mac Portable doesn't have those issues... I had the exact same thought when I was looking into this issue. The oldest one amongst all of them doesn't have the issue, yet all the subsequent monochrome/grayscale active matrix panels in the portable/powerbook family do. I wonder what the difference is?
I would like to add. I have a powerbook 180, my screen had the same issue. I bought a screen from another member on this forum that was tested in his powerbook 180 for hours and the issue did not occur. I got the screen, didn't have a chance to install for 6 months. When I did swap the screen with mine, the new screen had the exact same issue.
This leads me to believe the problem is seperate from the screen itself, somewhere in the lower section of the laptop.
My thread:
http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21754 That is an interesting finding. That would be quite something if it turned out to be an issue with the circuity in the system rather than in the LCD itself. However, if it was in the system itself, wouldn't the other types of screen suffer from a similar fate? What makes the grayscale active matrix susceptible?
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Posted by: uniserver on 2013-08-21 18:33:52
Really, the screen in the portable is quite beautiful 🙂
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Posted by: Paralel on 2013-08-21 19:36:10
9.8" Active Matrix, it's easy to see why the system cost so much.
I'd love to have one to add to my collection, but as a result of age, and design issues, they seem to be more trouble than I would want to deal with. They belong with better collectors than I.
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Posted by: uniserver on 2013-08-21 19:41:28
i know a guy that might sell you one. his name is hap.
just throw a battery in it... if you are worried about the battery going bad just keep it plugged in...
mcdermd keeps his plugged in full time.
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Posted by: RickNel on 2013-08-22 18:40:10
If the root cause is not delamination reducing capacitance, then it has to be to do with attenuation of the signals, and so most likely caps related. Or possibly gradual decline in the conductance of the traces leading to the screen edge connections to each matrix line. I haven't seen inside one of those, but if the traces on the connecting cable fan out from the centre, the traces to the corners will be longer, and attentuation would be seen there first.
Just speculation...
Rick
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Posted by: techknight on 2013-08-22 19:29:56
Well because its only the active matrix, I am thinking the early transistors are going leaky on the internal plane. Either that, or LCD contamination due to bad edge seals. This fabrication process may have changed on the color displays so you dont see these faults.
All liquid crystals require AC drive, otherwise the pixels will supertwist and get stuck on, then fade.... Also when applied to DC, the liquid crystal begins to take on a di-electric property and hold a charge, and when the DC is removed it takes a bit for the charge to leak off. Which is what is happening. Also if the potential is high enough on DC it can actually damage the LC. This is why typically liquid crystals are driven with an AC signal.
im beginning to think its because the transistors are going leaky, so they are causing a DC bias on the AC signal. which is bad news for liquid-crystals.
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Posted by: James1095 on 2013-08-23 12:17:35
DC can also cause electrolysis within the display, breaking down the conductive oxide electrodes.
The fact that this occurs on the edges does make me suspect that moisture has something to do with it. It isn't something I've seen before though, and I'm not sure why it would work ok for a while after being turned off.
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Posted by: uniserver on 2013-08-23 16:47:43
As i said in another post, i baked my pb170 display for 20 min and it was about 20-30% better.. really, i'm not joking.
i do not have the laptop any more. if i did i would bake it even more...
again? what would a vacuum chamber do ?
Or a 5 gallon bucket of rice for a couple weeks?
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Posted by: Paralel on 2013-08-23 17:11:16
Well, if the display I ordered develops this, testing will be done, and if the case appears to be terminal, I will be happy to send it to whoever things they have the best chance of being able to determine exactly what is causing it. Then at least we may be able to mount a defense against, or at the very least, develop a better understanding of the syndrome.
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Posted by: James1095 on 2013-08-26 11:23:35
Well, I have a good vacuum pump, but the chamber is the difficult part. Suck the air out of something and you end up with intense pressure trying to crush it. I don't know how an LCD panel would behave in a vacuum though, it may leak/boil out the liquid crystal compound.
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